SPP HICCUP

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Just got back from a 3 day weekend around rushworth area, some ground the hiccup wasn't even there but on a few larger areas with dark red stone the hiccup was so strong and repetitive that I literally walked away from the area :(

All in all I'm still happy with the spp but I didn't fully grasp how bad the hiccup could be when on the right/wrong ground, one area that I've been successful in the past was all but unusable with the spp. Was so bad it was making small targets unidentifiable.
 
Quick question

I've been told that the folded 8 mono has has a noise cancelling benefit as well as being very sensitive to small gold, has anyone used a folded mono on a spp ?
 
I am still here and with a few answers you probably won't like.

First, the ground in OZ is dramatically worse than most parts of the world. Eric Foster tested that ground and in places it is 40 or more times stronger in mineralization than anything we have here. Thus, much of the ground is going to give problems one way or another and noises show up there that don't happen here.

BTW, did anyone tell Whites that virtually all of the SPP's do the same hiccup thing there? They should be told that. In simple terms, they should be able to use any SPP or SL and create the same signals, providing they have enough of a similar ground sample to use.

At least these discussions have brought out a few things I didn't realize and one of those is, the ML compatible DD coils will not work on the TDI series as they are built. So, some modification will be required if they are to be used at all. The lead foil placed on the crossover section is only a temporary fix. I think I have a better fix but won't know for a while. Also, a DD coil can be made like my home made one that will work fine.

As for the DD fix of placing lead foil on a DD coil, it shouldn't cause any or minimal depth loss. As for small gold, well, the coil design is what determines how well small gold is detected. Also, you can't simply try one small nugget and come to any conclusion. You will find there will be some .1 gram nuggets that will be detected and others that won't and this is normal.

Keep in mind the use of lead foil on a DD coil was a spur of the moment idea and not intended to be the permanent fix. On the up side, it does seem to work. One might try some fine wire and see if they can get it to work. If steel is used, the coil field will be intensified so one might see a slight increase in depth. Again, this is all speculation and may not work at all.

Now, as for the hiccup video's, they show two different conditions, one of which is somewhat of a benefit if you understand it and the other is a pain.

Raising the coil quickly is a pain since it does cause a hiccup in bad ground, but I am still working on a solution. Moving the coil over the ground and holding the coil level to the ground and a hiccup shows up it is telling you something. On the level ground, if a hiccup occurs like in the video there is a target there and the hiccup happens as a result of that target as it is buried in the ground that can cause them. Yes, the ground may seem mild to you but it isn't. Now, that target may be a piece of metal or a hotrock strong enough to generate a target signal. Combination of things can cause a target to only sound off in one direction or when searching enough, no sound, but the hiccup will still be there. Why? Simple, the hiccup is the result of a sudden change in signal response and a sudden change indicates some form of a target. The change can be the result of a sudden ground change, such as a rock in the ground that has totally different ground characteristics, a small target, or anything else that looks like a sudden change to the detector.

The hiccup is the result of the noise reduction design and how it analyzes sudden changes. In some cases, the sudden change is the result of the strong ground changing quickly such as in the video where the coil is raised quickly. We had a similar signal and were able to compensate for what was happening. That is why we don't have the problem here, especially when using mono coils. Now, dual field coils can cause some hiccups easier even over here. Hopefully, none of you have any of those coils. I think the true mono coils have black coil wires and the DF coils have a gray lead.

Now, a quick hiccup fix is to eliminate the noise reduction but to do so will eliminate the nice quiet smooth threshold everybody likes. Instead, I am working on a different method that will keep the noise reduction and still eliminate the hiccup.

So, relax, the SPP still is a good detector for the price.

Reg
 
Reg I really value your input :)
I tried a patch this weekend that I last worked with a ml 2100 successfully many years ago, with the spp I was getting several strong hiccups in each direction of a slow constant hight sweep.... Ground balance came in around the factory mark on the dial and I had the gain backed down to 7 or less.

You can manipulate the spp to make the hiccup appear strong like in the videos but you can take it easy to minimise it, but unfortunately on this particular ground it was to no avail. It was just a big area of the same type of ground (no visible changes) that I have to say in all honesty the spp seriously struggled to gb or hold its composure.

Regards Daryl
 
Dazza,

Remember, when the SPP hiccups, it is saying something is there. It doesn't just hiccup for no reason. Now, the reason could be a rock, or a piece of metal, or a piece of gold. In other words, the hiccup happens because of a sudden change in the coil field.

Because the gain is so high in the GB channel, nothing might be heard in the normal metal channel yet the hiccup is heard. So, the hiccup can also be thought of as a depth enhancer. Unfortunately, there is no way to tell just what is causing the hiccup sound.

If you get a repeatable signal at a certain location, you might investigate it to see what is the culprit.

Now, as for your question about folded mono coils, well, I can't say about the noise reduction for sure, but my guess is there is no noise reduction. Remember, this design came from a figure 8 where half the coil is up and the other half down, so signals in each winding balance. In the folded design, the half that was up is now folded back into the main coil so it is now down and like the other half.

As for small gold, the idea was to enhance that aspect so the folded design should give better signals on small gold. Why do I say that? Simple, I created the folded mono design many years ago as an answer to White's patent on the Dual Field.

Here is a link to the design.

http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showthread.php?15585-Coax-for-duel-field-coil&highlight=folded+coil

Drop down to my post of a different dual field design for more info.

Reg
 
One thing I didn't mention was I helped Jason build his first coil that worked on the TDI way before he started the business selling Razorback coils. He later copied my design for the folded mono.

On a more recent note, I tried to talk Miner John (new owner of Razorback coils) into building DD coils, but he was told they wouldn't work on a TDI. After trying a ML compatible coil on my TDI's, I know where that idea came from.

Fortunately, my design of the DD works just fine.

Miner John is on a prospecting trip now, but when he gets back, I will explain where the idea that DD coils won't work on a TDI came from. I will also explain that my design works fine.

Reg
 
Thanks for the reply Reg we appreciate your input. You are right there is something when the SPP hiccups, its concentrated ground minerals. What bewilders me is that the same area i took that video my GMT would ground balance there no problems with a high gain? Thanks for the DD coil update i am sure a few of us here will be experimenting with some different materials on the coil and check responses.

Reg, I would like to try modding that noise reduction circuit but only if its reversible. Just to run an experiment with this hiccup sound.
 
I'd suggest making up a conductivity switch and without drilling holes plug it in and see what you think it's very simple to build' I should try to make time and show in a video it's affect on the hiccup.
 
Zuke, I have fitted the Conductivity switch and now it makes a CUP sound when raising the coil. So instead of making a hiccup sound when detecting it makes a CUP sound. Now here is the interesting thing and Reg maybe able to shed some light on this. When you flick the switch to high conductors the machine runs perfect so its only on the low conductor side is the problem?
 
Interesting as I never tried it in high the other day, it will make a great coin machine in the parks then!
I thought low wasn't to bad if it just poped a short little cup in every now and then but I still compare every detector to the GMT that boing, pops, grunts, revs up and snorts. And the best part of the day was turning it off you didn't care about the gold found.
At the end of the day if whites can't come up with a better idea on the SPP it's still a good detector for the money maybe a little annoying with the hiccup but still better than a VLF in the same location.
 
I have found there is a very noticeable jump in gain from 4 to 5. A gain of 5 the SPP starts to give good signals on small gold. The only problem is that at gain 4 the hiccup is not an issue, but raise the gain to five and that's when it starts to hiccup very noticeably. I have turned the gain up from 5 and above whilst testing on a 0.15g nugget, but i just notice more noise in my test location and gain 5 was the best compromise. I will have to do some testing more in the gold fields away from EMI sources and see how it goes then. I may even try running the gain on 8 or 10 and drop the threshold down to just inaudible as Wal suggested in another thread. One thing that gave a more noticeable signal was using the Kos ur30 headphones, but watch out if you hit a large object. :)
 
The reason the High conductor mode doesn't sound off is the signal is a low tone on high conductors and all high tones are shut off. The hiccup is a high tone even though it might not sound like one.

The single tone mode is something else I came up with before the TDI even came out. I added the conductivity feature to a GS 5 and found it to be extremely useful for finding silver coins. It was when I found a large gold ring that people took notice and as such, it was added to the TDI. Again, my info on this conductivity switch was posted on what was the Finds PI technology forum. Now, this forum is called simply the technology forum. For those interested, you can search the forum for 'a walk in a park'. I think it was back in March or April of 2008.

As for mods to reduce the hiccup, I do have a couple of ideas, one of which I sent to one of the forum members to try. I think it should help but can't say absolutely. The mod is extremely simple and only requires a small jumper be added across a diode. Use a little rosin flux on both sides of the diode, have a small jumper ready and add a little solder to each of the diode's contacts. Install the jumper and see what happens. The diode has 3 leads, two on one side and one on the other. Now, the single side is easy to select, but the side with two legs only has one being used. Look for the connection and trace. It should go to the left leg looking at the diode with the single leg up.

The idea of this mod comes from the fact, the TDI doesn't suffer nearly as bad as the SPP, so make the mod causes the SPP to be a little more like the TDI in how it reacts to negative signals. Fortunately, the gold channel has very little noise, so any mod to that portion will not add much noise but may help significantly. If it works like I think it should, then much of the hiccups should be gone. I am betting that the jumper will allow the blanking ckt to be more active on weak signals. If this happens, then all negative signals will be shut off, or at least most of them will.

If it doesn't work then a more complex idea will be tried, but I will have to try that one myself first.

If you are still interested in the simple mod, let me know.

Reg
 
Hi. All. Gee. This hiccup thing is getting more complicated by the minute. I don't have the problem any more cause I got a different machine. The SPP is a great machine though and I already miss mine. Hopefully Reg will be able to come up with a fix. Regards to all.... Ronnie.
 
Now don't laugh guys. I got a Nokta fors gold. And I have to tell you, it appears with the small amount of testing I have done, a very interesting and capable machine. A bit different in good ways from your average VLF. Will let you know how it goes with a bit more use. So far very happy. Ronnie. :)
 
I done some more testing this morning in the other park with Commander 10x5 DD coil. First I replaced piece of lead taped to the coil with some SS wire. No good, detector became unstable. Tried few more metal bits but finished by going black to original piece of lead. In wood chip area detector GB at 3. Tried all conductivity settings and found that in the high conductivity detector runs very smoothly, ignoring aluminium pull tabs, beer bottle tops, hair pins and most of aluminium foil. It will sound on goldies, Nickel coins if they close to surface, Cooper and brass, steel nails and bolts and steel wire and some crushed aluminium bottle tops . Also silver as I found silver Ring the other time. In low conductivity it will detect hair pins, safety pins, some very small steel nails, wire and screws, beer bottle tops, pull tabs and some aluminium bottle tops. Did not found any gold there, but picked up $3.10.
Then I went to grass area of the park. GB was much more difficult to set at about 9. Searched for about 20 minutes in high conductivity for $1.11. The 1 cent coin was a pain in the neck as it sounded as like goldies coin, very localized signal, but after digging about 20 cm I come up with 1 Cent!
I hope that Reg will come up with some pernamet fix for the DD coils as I prefer to use them.
Karl
 
Interesting Karl! Iv dug those little 1c coins with the TDI pro that depth plus' copper coins give very smooth round signals just like aluminum bottle tops I'm using a mono but a pain to pin point. I would also like a nice sized DD but only for parks.
 
How do I get the full info to do the SPP mod's ?
not that I will do the work myself but I have friends that could do it for me. :)
 

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