DEEP CYCLE BATTERIES and BUSH POWER

[condor22]

Last test for a while, I ran my 100AH van battery down to 73% full (27amps used) My 110W concertina folding panel was deployed on the van roof for 7 hours and the battery is full.

So from this, approx. 25% used, which is optimum for battery cycle life, needs 1 x 110W or 120W to fully charge on a sunny day. I can't test for winter conditions for a while obviously.

Re my use, my TV draws 2.5A @ 12V, a couple of LED lights draw about 0.5A, the water pump would get no more than 15 minutes of use so about 1.5AH. If I go detecting after breakfast, my van is using no power, so I get home in the arvo, maybe use the TV for 5 hrs and the lights for 6 hrs - 12.5+3+1.5 = 17AH.

My next test is to use the inverter to charge my GPX battery, but to get to 25% use I have 8AH to spare. I use no power when asleep.

The logical progression is that if you need between 25AH and 50AH then you need 200AH of battery and 220 to 240W of solar, easy.......

 

[condor22]

I sat down last night to consider the results of the above test, after some thought I was not happy with the results. On a good sunny day I should have expected more. As I only live about 2kms from the supplier/designer of this panel, I spent 2 hours this morning there, testing my panel, regulator and wiring against another of the same panels. My panel seems to be faulty, here are the test parameters.

Panels side by side, battery, headlight for a load and a clamp ammeter. Weather intermittent overcast/sunny

Results -

My panel - overcast 1.9A - sunny 3.0A
The other panel - overcast 3.5A - sunny peaked at 9.1A but consistent 6.1A

So, the supplier will contact the manufacturer tonight and I expect to get a new panel in exchange, will keep you posted.

The supplier said this is the first time he's seen this happen, that a panel outputs but at 1/3 to 1/2 of what it should.

We checked the regulators on a test bench and both operated as they should and with the same result, so definitely down to the panel.

This would definitely not stop me from getting one or indeed a second one. After seeing what it should do, I have never seen a panel of this size with this kind of output. So 40+ amps overcast and up to 60-70A on a sunny day is great.

Will obviously need to retest when the faulty panel issue is resolved.

 

[Tassie Daz]

Hi Condor, Great thread and for us, very up-to-date because we came home today after putting a battery and Anderson plug on our car and van. The question of a wet cell battery was raised initially and the Auto Electrician said that they are illegally fitted to a Caravan as they give off gas when charging........not to mention the capacity to leak acid into the van environment. So we opted for the AGM and a solar cell. Next time we're over, maybe we'll catch you in the bush.

 

[wooly]

The supplier said this is the first time he's seen this happen, that a panel outputs but at 1/3 to 1/2 of what it should.

Perhaps the cells in your panel are in 3 or 4 series strings and you have a faulty string or 2 in your panel.

You can see the effects of shading on a panel in this video. This would be a very similar result if 1 or 2 of the cell strings were faulty.
http://youtu.be/UNPJapaZlCU

For your test you could have just shorted the panel leads to give you short circuit current. Just make sure you cover the panel from the sun when making or breaking the connection.

Have you thought about mounting a grid type panel on your van? Much cheaper than the fold out 12 volt type you have.

 

[condor22]

Thanks Daz, you are spot on, but never mind legality, it's down right dangerous and could be very messy.

Wooly,

The supplier is an electrical engineer, he designed these panels, we covered each string horizontally and vertically as well as load tests, took voltage and amp readings, nothing is obviously wrong, it is not open circuit because it is still producing some output. The bottom line is "it is faulty and will be replaced".

My main use for this panel is my 4x4 fridge when I'm out detecting and the engine is off. The reason I am testing on the van is that the cells used in these panels are rear gridded and produce power in both UV and IR spectrums and start producing from dawn until dusk and wanted to know if it was sufficient to power the van. The supplier also has semi rigid sheet panels and rigid panels using the same cells (which are U.S. manufacture, not Chinese)

Re grid panels - many, to increase output use 24 and 48 VDC, which then means specialised controllers to step down to 12VDC. This is for an RV, so I would use RV panels only. Also as I said above, 1 x 110/120W panel per 100AH of battery, this sizes my requirement to 1 panel. If you have a 12VDC only fridge in a van/camper, a bigger inverter etc, you may double the battery and maybe triple the solar. Design = Fit for purpose = Happy camper.

My caravan is a Jurgens, it uses a sandwich panel construction and is not prewired for solar, so I would need to use a cable channel to get from the roof to the battery.
Secondly, if I park it in shade or partial shade I lose solar. So, a portable solution where I could track the sun a couple of times a day and keep the panel in the sun even if the van is shaded is better.

I will be putting a waterproof 12VDC connector on the outside wall of the battery compartment this weekend. (A double outlet/inlet of 1 x cigarette socket and 1 x Merit socket, fused).

My main reason for portable is that I already have the 110W Concertina panel and a folding (suitcase style) 120W panel and only need to wire either of them to either the 4x4 or van. I've only had this van for < 2 months and am still outfitting and deciding which way to do things.

 

[condor22]

Nearly forgot the reason for logging in.....

I have the GPX5000, I ran the detector battery from 8.0V down to 7.5V and briefly connected the 240VAC charger to my 150W pure sine wave inverter. (I've never got below 7.5 volts on my 5000 for a full day detecting)

The caravan battery volts (charged) when on load was 12.7 VDC, the inverter load was 2.3 amps. This means the start up wattage is a bit <30 W. So a 150W inverter is plenty big enough. In fact I could (using a 4x power board) charge the 5000 battery, 2 mobile phones and my 7" tablet well under 150W.

It's too late tonight to test, so my job for tomorrow is to switch on the inverter and charger and time how long it takes for the green 5000 battery LED to show it's full and how many AH are used to do so.

I'll post those results tomorrow evening.

Keep in mind that I, like many, keep the 5000 battery on the car charger when moving spots or whenever driving. So the 240VAC charge happens in the evening when there is no solar input.

 

[Westaus]

Found something that I think is the "Bees Knees" of battery management. It is THE most user friendly, easy to use battery management system I've seen.
So good I bought one today.

Here are the details -

Their web page - https://teambmpro.com/au/shop/battery-check.html

The Android app - https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.setec.batterycheck

The Apple app - https://itunes.apple.com/th/app/batterycheck/id862806938?mt=8

I will be installing it in my caravan tomorrow, it should take all of 5 minutes, I'll post my pics and thoughts on how easy it is to use tomorrow night.

It is primarily for caravan and camper deep cycle batteries, I know it will work on my auxiliary in the 4x4 as mine is in the back of the car.
Not sure of its environmental limits under the hood.

Dad was showing me this last night, he is getting one installed on the caravan while upgrading some parts. Good to hear you give it a good rap.

 

[condor22]

Yup,

My last few post's quoting solar and or load data, is from this monitor, it was so easy to install and operate.

 

[condor22]

The GPX battery as described above took 2.5 hours to charge and used 8AH of 12 volt power.

I would assume on normal use and methods I use that at the end of a days detecting it will not take as long or use as much power to top it up.

But until after next Easter, I won't be able to test it under actual conditions. But I'm happy that my system will provide for the above test and more than do so in actual conditions.

 

[condor22]

After some considerable testing with the retailer and emails to the manufacturer of my concertina 110W solar panel, I now have a new one (replacement)

For some reason the first panel would not produce more than 2.5amps. The one I have now has so far put out 9AH in a couple of hours of semi overcast conditions, peaking at over 5amps. I only had a 2.9amp load from my Engel, not enough for a real test.

I want to wait for a bright sunny day, run my battery down a bit and put a 10amp load on my caravan. Leave the panel on all day from sunrise to sunset the next day and see what it puts out. Silly season and the weather have so far stopped me from doing this, but will post the results when done.

 

[nuggetino]

I have one of the 300w mono panels with aluminium backing mounted on my van roof. Riveted onto the poptop. Weighs 9kg. Lasted a month and died all of a sudden one morning (zero output) I went through the panel with a multimeter to find where the problem is and found the slim flexi panels are near impossible to repair as you can't open them up to solder any shorts in the cells. Noticed a lot of hotspots in the panel and will have to throw it in the trash and have bought a 240w glass panel to replace it. It's a shame as there's advantages to a roof mounted panel such as a constant output at all times including driving and oyu don't have to worry about someone stealing your solar panels. A downside is you also have to park your car in the sunlight at all times if you want a good output. Say hello to a cooking hot camper van at the end of a days detecting. The 240w panel is a fold out type and comes with a long lead as standard so I might try it for a while and see if the trade off of setting it up each day is worth it. Have a feeling I'll be mounting it on the roof soon enough.

 

[condor22]

The probable reason for you panel failing is that mono and poly panels are heat affected especially over 50 deg C. Amorphous panels are not, but their solar conversion rates are half that of mono/poly panels, so you need twice the roof area for the same output.

My concertina panel uses a rear gridded UV/IR sensitive cell, all of the above type only use the visible spectrum. So mine starts producing the moment it gets light till dusk.
Albeit at lower levels.

The cells are manufactured in the States, I believe by http://us.sunpower.com/solar-panels-technology/facts/ The panel is manufactured in Taiwan.

Most panels fixed to the top of vans etc are on legs with a rigid frame to allow air circulation to help lower panel temp. The guy I got my concertina panel also does these cells mounted on a semi rigid poly backing about 2.5mm thick. Designed to be stuck on a flat roof with silicone sealer, as they are not affected by higher temps.

One thing you need to be aware of. Too long a lead from a portable panel will apply voltage drop. Many portable panels, like the other suitcase one I have, fix the regulator to the back of the panel, convert the 19 or so volts to 13+ volts then go through the long lead to the battery.

It is far better to cut out this regulator and put one near the battery. That way any voltage drop is in the 19 volt panel output before to gets to the regulator and you get maximum volts at the battery.

I'm always concerned at the "widow makers" when parking near a Gum tree. Shade aint always the important thing. But you do need to chain the panel to a tree, the van or car to give you a good chance of still having a panel when you get back to camp. And, hopefully you won't have a bloody great branch in your van.

 

[nuggetino]

thanks condor it does sound like the probable cause for my panel failure. In the lead up to the failure the day temps were in the low 40's and yes was fixed directly to the fibreglass poptop without allowing for additional air circulation. I think i will go ahead and mount my new panel on the roof as it is a pain in the ass setting up and lugging a 22kg panel in and out of the car each day. Will have do so in a manner that allows for over/under air circulation as you mention. Your Concertina panel may exceed the performance of my 120w mono panel. I'd love to hear more about your results upon further testing.

 

[Redfin]

I'm about to start researching a panel for the top of the Prado.
We are getting sick and tired of putting fridge in and out every weekend and want to leave it in 24/7.
The 105 ah 2nd battery does a good job but need a panel for those days in the driveway or at work.
A lot of blokes seem to be using, recommending these.
http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=MP3126&form=CAT2&SUBCATID=1004#12
your thoughts?

 

[condor22]

Redfin

I've had a look at the page and the PDF spec sheet. Nowhere does it state what the charging algorithm is. You also haven't stated what kind of Aux 2nd battery you have.

The parameters required are;

Most panels up to 110W will produce about 6-7 amps max, my concertina panel is fitted with this regulator;

http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=MP3721&form=CAT2&SUBCATID=1004#12

It is water resistant, but more important it has a configuration wire, so that the correct charging can be applied to different batteries. i.i. AGM, wet cell or Gel. So point one, The regulator needs to be capable of handling the max Amps of the panel array and point 2 it needs to be suitable for the battery type.

I have my panel on the van for a test today, I'm pulling more amps than the panel is producing and have a monitor on it to measure AH. I didn't get it up and running till 12 noon, so not a full day. But I'll leave it on until dusk and post the results tonight.

 

[condor22]

Ran over 20AH out, was fully charged when disconnected. Given my normal use I'm happy with that.

 

[nuggetino]

That's impressive Condor for 110w panel. What were the conditions like? I need to hook up a monitor and measure the output of my panels. Which do you use?

 

[condor22]

BM PRO

https://teambmpro.com/au/shop/battery-check.html

 

[condor22]

I'm going to do another test tomorrow, put lights on normal, run TV for what I might use out there etc, then next day put the panel up and see if it charges fully.

I want to do this on a good day and then again nearer winter. that way it's more realistic. I'm not going bush until just after Easter next year so I want a realistic gauge. But I won't really know until out there and operating normally.

I'll still take the Genny just in case and to run the microwave.

 

[HeadsUp]

The probable reason for you panel failing is that mono and poly panels are heat affected especially over 50 deg C. Amorphous panels are not, but their solar conversion rates are half that of mono/poly panels, so you need twice the roof area for the same output.

My concertina panel uses a rear gridded UV/IR sensitive cell, all of the above type only use the visible spectrum. So mine starts producing the moment it gets light till dusk.
Albeit at lower levels.

The cells are manufactured in the States, I believe by http://us.sunpower.com/solar-panels-technology/facts/ The panel is manufactured in Taiwan.

Most panels fixed to the top of vans etc are on legs with a rigid frame to allow air circulation to help lower panel temp. The guy I got my concertina panel also does these cells mounted on a semi rigid poly backing about 2.5mm thick. Designed to be stuck on a flat roof with silicone sealer, as they are not affected by higher temps.

One thing you need to be aware of. Too long a lead from a portable panel will apply voltage drop. Many portable panels, like the other suitcase one I have, fix the regulator to the back of the panel, convert the 19 or so volts to 13+ volts then go through the long lead to the battery.

It is far better to cut out this regulator and put one near the battery. That way any voltage drop is in the 19 volt panel output before to gets to the regulator and you get maximum volts at the battery.

.

what do you think of these ones ?

do you have a link for the ones you mentioned ? i want the very thin type to suit my vehicle mount ( it has air circulation under the mounting point )

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/100W-2-5.../281342847588?pt=AU_Solar&hash=item4181572a64