Whinge of the day thread...

[David-Karratha]

Might be just a 'silly season' beat-up. Australia has a pretty solid weights and measures regime, including inspection and testing:
https://www.industry.gov.au/national-measurement-institute/trade-measurement

I understand it’s policed pretty well, but I did read that many or possibly most fuel bowsers don’t compensate for temperature variation, which typically misreads (in the owners favour) at most “normal” temperatures. They’re really only accurate at the calibration temp. Not sure if this is correct or not.

 

[Eng888]

Might be just a 'silly season' beat-up. Australia has a pretty solid weights and measures regime, including inspection and testing:
https://www.industry.gov.au/national-measurement-institute/trade-measurement

Thats no beat up but they are way too conservative.

If you knew who to ask you will find crooked technicians who will adjust the pump flowmeter so it under delivers by any percentage you want.

You are more likely to find innaccurate pumps at Independent servo's but the majors are not immune from having faulty equipment either.

If you know your tank has a 100 litre capacity but you fill up one day with 125 litres what does that tell you ?

The flowmeters used in bowsers use a hall effect or reed pulser that can be played with to change the numbers you see at the bowser , bowsers are _supposed to be_ accurate to 0.3 % but most are not.
Every pump has air eliminator devices before the fuel gets to the flowmeter so you dont pay for bubbles , and they can also use temperature compensation to adjust for expansion in the fuel too.

But many servos are innaccurate , the bosses know this and let it carry.

 

[user 22230]

 

[Eng888]

I understand it’s policed pretty well, but I did read that many or possibly most fuel bowsers don’t compensate for temperature variation, which typically misreads (in the owners favour) at most “normal” temperatures. They’re really only accurate at the calibration temp. Not sure if this is correct or not.

Every fuel tanker i ever saw definitely had temperature compensation , and the temperature , comp % and other data was included on every printed docket because of course Servo owners are such tightasses they dont want to be ripped off (LOL) , Yet on their delivery side to customers some of them will plot and scheme for ways to rip us off.
That can include fuel blending , cheating the pulser on the flowmeter with a hidden switch under the counter , blocking the air eliminator vent so you pay for bubbles in your fuel and probably a few other rorts.
If they get caught intentionally setting up dodgy hardware i am sure they will get a big fat fine because NMI inspectors do engage in spot checks.
You can report incidents to NMI and they Do respond to them with site visits and calibration tests.

I was on a job 2 - 3 years ago where a new fuel management system was being installed at a retail point , i looked over the pipework and asked where the temperature probe was in the pipeline , The techs said "nah we dont use them on these systems" ....... I said WTF ? ? ? Its law mate , they just shrugged their shoulders and ignored me.
I think NMI is like Heavy Vehicle Inspectors , If they get a target in their sights they hammer your ass but most offenders go under the radar.

 

[user 4386]

Only 7.9% were found to be outside limits, not "most" and I have never put 125 litres in a 100 litre tank (although I have been suspicious about some much smaller amounts). Temperature effects should be small as underground temperatures (in the storage tank) are fairly constant and are a mean temperature and don't vary like surface temperatures nor change very raoidly (it is based on 25 degrees Celsius). Only January JUST reaches that in Melbourne, December and January in Sydney just reach that, and Brisbane exceeds that over a number of months but no month exceeds that by 5 degrees - and that is surface temperature, not storage tank temperature. So probably most fuel in Australia is sold at LOWER than average temperature (so they would be wise to apply a correction since they lose not the customer).

I don't doubt that some rig things, but they do test at least 4000 bowsers per year (there are about 7000 service stations) so gross rigging will be caught out in many cases - although I notice that they fail to mention much evidence of that. Petrol tankers are different, they can rapidly warm up to near-surface temperatures, so temperature compensation is important..
As I said in #1148, $2 per day per service station (probably less than 50 c per day per bowser) doesn't compete well with what they make on dim sims. Anyone who runs a business knows that there are other priorities, and that it is hard and expensive to comply with all regulations without intentionally rigging anything.

 

[Eng888]

3 - 4 years ago i reported pumping errors to servo staff and manager at one very busy servo on a major highway , my complaints were ignored , i went back there twice more over a 3 month period and the pumps were consistently off by 6.3 %.

I then complained to NMI and they responded within 2 days , they didnt disclose if a fine was imposed but they contacted me and said "It has been addressed Sir"
They also published a report in the news 2 weeks later stating that "spot checks are being carried out of bowser accuracy" , That was a warning to anyone they missed to tidy up their game.

I think they published that also to bring awareness to the public that they can complain if they have concerns.

That was a brand in the top 3 biggest names in the country.

If you think its small change , consider that due to competition in different areas the profit margin on fuel for the servo might be as low as $0.01 to $0.03 per litre , then if they can cheat us for 6.5% on volume thats a big jump from 0.005 % profit isnt it !

 

[user 22230]

Worked a servo pumping fuel for over 15 years and lets just say there is a lot going on behind the scenes that Joe public knows nothing about. It's all about making money and as long as that goal exists then rorts will also

 

[Eng888]

Worked a servo pumping fuel for over 15 years and lets just say there is a lot going on behind the scenes that Joe public knows nothing about. It's all about making money and as long as that goal exists then rorts will also

I could never quite get my head around the price that refineries would supply fuel for "depending who you are"

I had customers who set up fuel storage for both retail and some for non- retail purposes , yet their ability to negotiate pricing was an intrigue.

In case that was missed , There are aspects relating to influence that are beyond the scope of my current understanding .

If you think retailers are complicated , then whats going on in the process before they even get their fuel ?

 

[user 4386]

3 - 4 years ago i reported pumping errors to servo staff and manager at one very busy servo on a major highway , my complaints were ignored , i went back there twice more over a 3 month period and the pumps were consistently off by 6.3 %.

I then complained to NMI and they responded within 2 days , they didnt disclose if a fine was imposed but they contacted me and said "It has been addressed Sir"
They also published a report in the news 2 weeks later stating that "spot checks are being carried out of bowser accuracy" , That was a warning to anyone they missed to tidy up their game.

I think they published that also to bring awareness to the public that they can complain if they have concerns.

That was a brand in the top 3 biggest names in the country.

If you think its small change , consider that due to competition in different areas the profit margin on fuel for the servo might be as low as $0.01 to $0.03 per litre , then if they can cheat us for 6.5% on volume thats a big jump from 0.005 % profit isn't it !

On average it is obviously nothing like that, although that might occur in rare cases such as yours (I am unclear how you can determine that so accurately). The maximum permissible error is 0.3% (only 5.7% were exceeding that), and the maximum they observed was 0.9%, so the service station industry is hardly making a windfall profit from it. The main problem is likely to be a remote outback server with one pump that is rarely serviced and perhaps never audited because it is too remote, but most of us can just use a different service station if we are suspicious.

"According to ACCC Reports: The average net profit on fuel over the past 9 years was 1.3 cents per litre." i.e. not 0.01 to 0.03 cents per litre but 40 to more than 100 times that.

I guess it is inevitable that when the price of a commodity becomes outlandishly expensive, people will think they are being ripped off.

 

[Eng888]

"According to ACCC Reports: The average net profit on fuel over the past 9 years was 1.3 cents per litre." i.e. not 0.01 to 0.03 cents per litre but 40 to more than 100 times that.

My post clearly stated $0.01 to $0.03 which , if you seek the employ of a highly talented mathemetician to assist you , you will in fact find is 100.00000000 % the same as "1 to 3 cents per litre"

You are entitled to a belief ... I have only worked in manufacturing , installs and servicing in the sector.

 

[user 4386]

My post clearly stated $0.01 to $0.03 which , if you seek the employ of a highly talented mathemetician to assist you , you will in fact find is 100.00000000 % the same as "1 to 3 cents per litre"

You are entitled to a belief ... I have only worked in manufacturing , installs and servicing in the sector.

So you did

My point about people inevitably feeling ripped off was a general comment not one specific to you. My point being that the audit found that 5.7% of servos were overcharging 30c to 90c on a 100 l fill (and a third were undercharging) - at a time when my 100 l fill is fluctuating $25 each time I go in (usually up), it hardly seems to matter....most money is not going to the servo owner but to the wholesalers and government.

My question as to how you calculate so accurately was a genuine one - I would like to know because I have had times when I was suspicious, like most people. I am but a former research scientist who dealt in measuring nanograms etc but I have not thought of a way to allow for air in my tank and filler lines (versus not), inaccuracy of specified tank capacity (which I have proved is way larger than specifications for my model).

To me it is like the middle ages hatred of Jewish tax collectors - it was the government taking the money and they were just employees, but they were there and it is easier to see the person you can see as the demon.

 

[Eng888]

Especially when Dim Sims are $4.95 each now eh?!.........

Diesel : $ 2.39 per litre

Powerade : $ 6.00 per litre

 

[Manpa]

Sadly this is degenerating in to a my fuel pumps bigger than your fuel pump discussion.

 

[Eng888]

So you did

My point about people inevitably feeling ripped off was a general comment not one specific to you. My point being that the audit found that 5.7% of servos were overcharging 30c to 90c on a 100 l fill (and a third were undercharging) - at a time when my 100 l fill is fluctuating $25 each time I go in (usually up), it hardly seems to matter....most money is not going to the servo owner but to the wholesalers and government.

My question as to how you calculate so accurately was a genuine one - I would like to know because I have had times when I was suspicious, like most people. I am but a former research scientist who dealt in measuring nanograms etc but I have not thought of a way to allow for air in my tank and filler lines (versus not), inaccuracy of specified tank capacity (which I have proved is way larger than specifications for my model).

To me it is like the middle ages hatred of Jewish tax collectors - it was the government taking the money and they were just employees, but they were there and it is easier to see the person you can see as the demon.

the simple answer as to how i measure so accurately is one of my vehicles has a tray top mounted fuel tank that i fabricated , Its exactly 200 litres to the filler neck , I have used it for backup when doing site calibrations but conveniently i also use it for reserve fuel to fill my mini excavator or forklift which i can carry on the truck , i can also push a button on the dashboard and transfer fuel from it into the truck tank too.

Its very difficult to get an accurate gauge from the OEM fuel tank on vehicles these days because they can be such an irregular shape and have voids in them , plus vehicle tanks shouldnt allow for 100 % filling to capacity due to expansion gap anyway.

 

[user 4386]

the simple answer as to how i measure so accurately is one of my vehicles has a tray top mounted fuel tank that i fabricated , Its exactly 200 litres to the filler neck , I have used it for backup when doing site calibrations but conveniently i also use it for reserve fuel to fill my mini excavator or forklift which i can carry on the truck , i can also push a button on the dashboard and transfer fuel from it into the truck tank too.

Its very difficult to get an accurate gauge from the OEM fuel tank on vehicles these days because they can be such an irregular shape and have voids in them , plus vehicle tanks shouldnt allow for 100 % filling to capacity due to expansion gap anyway.

Thanks for that - that is about the only way I could think to do it - which is of course impractical for most of us. Keep 'em honest on our behalf!

 

[RM Outback]

Sadly this is degenerating in to a my fuel pumps bigger than your fuel pump discussion.

Yeah I fuel your pain Merry Christmas

 

[Mackka]

Two 17-year-old " Children", were in "Childrens Court" this morning charged with MURDER. FFS when is this country going to start standing up for the good, honest, hardworking, law-abiding, God-Fearing citizens and stop pussy footing around with youth criminals? The other day i heard on the radio that a youth had over 80 previous convictions but because he always pleaded guilty, no conviction is recorded. These kids are smart, but they need to be taught a lesson.

 

[sand surfer]

it's the same here too mackka ,i know a cop that threw his job in for that reason mackka
sick and tired of picking up the same young pricks all the time and nothing happening to them legal wise
it's a revolving door now mackka

 

[Manpa]

There was a bottle shop north of Adelaide yesterday where half a dozen eshays (slang term for for local louts and criminal gang members) loaded up four shopping trolleys with booze and took off. All done during a busy trading period with not a care in the world, knocked a woman over during their getaway. These pricks are not contributing to society, therefore they should be removed from it and the privileges it affords.

 

[Mackka]

Pa, I have a mate in Cairns and he said that the youth crime there and in Townsville is out of control and when these louts are caught and processed, they are back on the streets doing it all over again, and again. I feel sorry for the poor bloody coppers that have to put up with this crap 24/7 and then see these “ children” term used loosely, back out on the streets. Some countries, would have a hand cut off or worse for such atrocities and I am not suggesting that, but something must be done.