T2 vs. G2 vs. AT Gold - for detecting tiny iron objects

[claudius]

A good pinpointer have no trouble detecting pins/needels and small items.

If you as indicating want to try metal detecting also, then have a look here.

https://www.cwpsupplies.com.au/product/makro-racer/

The Red Racer have absolutely no trouble in detecting a ferrous pin or needle, be it in All Metal or Disc. and as in above link it come with a pinpointer.

Gold Racer will also do it, but the Red Racer is tops for Park/coins and Beach Work/Jewellery.

I use both, it's not based on guesswork.

I thought of Makro Racer, when I saw the tests on on youtube, and it turned out to be better in many situations than units as AT Gold, GBP others at the same price (of course no one did a needle-test). But then I read, that Makro Gold Racer should be better for my needs for its higher freq (56 kHz). And I got confused. And now your post made me think again. What would you say - which one of them would give me a better distance with a small needle?

 

[claudius]

I just ran a few tests on a 48mm needle.

XT18000 and 6" goldseeker coil (Sens 90%)
Across coil - 11cm
Parallel to coil - 7cm

Fors Gold + with 10x5" coil (sens 50%)
Fast Disc Mode
Across coil - 9cm
Parallel to coil - 7cm
the needle ID's at 20, so Disc mode with ID Mask on ten hits it clearly.

Fors Gold + with 10x5" coil (sens 50%)
All-Metal Mode
Across coil - 9cm
Parallel to coil - 7cm

Fors CoRe with 5" oor coil (Sens 50%)
DI2 Disc Mode, ID Mask 10
Across Coil - 12cm
Parallel to coil - 8.5cm

Fors CoRe with 11x7" coil (Sens 50%)
DI2 Disc Mode, ID Mask 10
Across Coil - 12cm
Parallel to coil - 8cm

You did me a very big favor with those tests, and your precision. I don't even know, what to say. It is awesome! They gave me a lot of information:

1. First, all metal mode was not better than fast disc mode (Fors Gold). And that is so strange to me, since so many people made it very clear, that I must use only all metal mode to detect a needle.
2. Second, angle matters. I now know for sure, I need to move the things I check around, and from different angles.
3. Third, coil size does not matter (5" vs. 11x7"). Many people suggested I must buy and extra coil (a small one), if I want to have a better distance.
4. Frequency does not matter (?). I see that Fors CoRe (14kHz) did better than dedicated to gold hunting Fors Gold (19 kHz) and XT18000 (you did not give the frequency, but I suppose you used a higher one).

Fors Core gave best results, but I see your needle was big - mine are 3,3cm, which makes a great difference. I would be satisfied by 8cm, so it is possible that Fors Core would get the results with a smaller needle, and across coil.
I will go through those unit's specifications more carefully, and try to get more information out of what you wrote.

 

[PhaseTech]

I found a smaller needle, 32mm length, very thin.

Fors CoRe with 5" oor coil (Sens 50%) - Increasing Sens to 80 gains about 1 cm.
DI2 Disc Mode, ID Mask 10
Across Coil - 7.5cm
Parallel to coil - 5cm

Fors CoRe with 5" oor coil (Sens 50%)
GEN All-Metal mode
Across Coil - 11cm
Parallel to coil - 10cm

So All-metal mode is definitely more Sensitive to small items.

Thought I'd try the Gold+ with 5" coil for comparison.

Fors Gold+ with 5" coil (Sens 50%)
BST Disc Mode, ID Mask 10
Across Coil - 7cm
Parallel to coil - 4cm

Fors Gold+ with 5" coil (Sens 50%)
GEN All-Metal mode
Across Coil - 11.5cm
Parallel to coil - 9cm

One thing I noticed indoors is that the 20 kHz on the 18000, and the 19kHz Gold + are interfering with something, so I get a slight chatter when in all-metal mode.
60 kHz, and the 15kHz on the CoRe just purr along.

 

[nesral]

Red Racer and Gold Racer on plastic crates 1m of the ground both with 10x5" DD coils.

Both units switched on at preset settings without any other adjustments or ground balance, which would normally be done if detecting with the coil near the ground.

Pin tested 29mm long x 0.6mm thick, this is the size of pins I use when sewing.

Gold Racer.
All Metal: 100mm
Disc 2: 50mm
Disc 3: 65mm

Red Racer.
All Metal:100mm+
2 Tone Disc: 50mm+
3 Tone Disc: 25mm+

Early Garret Pin Pointer 10mm on this pin.

 

[Goldtarget]

Got me curious now, I'll put mine to the test tonight, I would have thought most high end machines with good gain should have little trouble picking up a needle, the sensitivity to small iron based (steel, tin, chrome) items I find out in the parks is downright distracting.

Using indoors near emi sources is certainly going to make life interesting, I'm guessing that's why handheld scanners are so costly to produce the shelding needed to operate without falsing on emi yet sensitive enough to pick up reasonable sized metallic objects.

One of the more left field requests on pa yet!

 

[claudius]

I found a smaller needle, 32mm length, very thin.

Fors CoRe with 5" oor coil (Sens 50%) - Increasing Sens to 80 gains about 1 cm.
DI2 Disc Mode, ID Mask 10
Across Coil - 7.5cm
Parallel to coil - 5cm

Fors CoRe with 5" oor coil (Sens 50%)
GEN All-Metal mode
Across Coil - 11cm
Parallel to coil - 10cm

So All-metal mode is definitely more Sensitive to small items.

Thought I'd try the Gold+ with 5" coil for comparison.

Fors Gold+ with 5" coil (Sens 50%)
BST Disc Mode, ID Mask 10
Across Coil - 7cm
Parallel to coil - 4cm

Fors Gold+ with 5" coil (Sens 50%)
GEN All-Metal mode
Across Coil - 11.5cm
Parallel to coil - 9cm

One thing I noticed indoors is that the 20 kHz on the 18000, and the 19kHz Gold + are interfering with something, so I get a slight chatter when in all-metal mode.
60 kHz, and the 15kHz on the CoRe just purr along.

Thank you once again. So now finally all-metal mode showed its power. I am so relieved, that you got so good results with such a small needle. I must admit, after your test with the big needle, I was worried, there would be now way those units would do good on a small one.

 

[claudius]

Red Racer and Gold Racer on plastic crates 1m of the ground both with 10x5" DD coils.

Both units switched on at preset settings without any other adjustments or ground balance, which would normally be done if detecting with the coil near the ground.

Pin tested 29mm long x 0.6mm thick, this is the size of pins I use when sewing.

Gold Racer.
All Metal: 100mm
Disc 2: 50mm
Disc 3: 65mm

Red Racer.
All Metal:100mm+
2 Tone Disc: 50mm+
3 Tone Disc: 25mm+

Early Garret Pin Pointer 10mm on this pin.

Thank you! So there is no actual difference between Gold Racer and Red Racer. I guess Red Racer would be more versatile. 10cm and more is great. Did you perhaps manage to notice, whether the angle towards the coil matter?
And btw. you use very small needles . I thought, I used the smallest.

 

[claudius]

Got me curious now, I'll put mine to the test tonight, I would have thought most high end machines with good gain should have little trouble picking up a needle, the sensitivity to small iron based (steel, tin, chrome) items I find out in the parks is downright distracting.

Using indoors near emi sources is certainly going to make life interesting, I'm guessing that's why handheld scanners are so costly to produce the shelding needed to operate without falsing on emi yet sensitive enough to pick up reasonable sized metallic objects.

One of the more left field requests on pa yet!

So I will be waiting impatiently to see, how you machines performed.
Handheld scanners are made to work from a very small distance. I have read a few articles with some experiments on those. They performed well, but still were not able to detect as small as tiny needles or staples and such.

 

[Goldpick]

Red Racer and Gold Racer on plastic crates 1m of the ground both with 10x5" DD coils.

Both units switched on at preset settings without any other adjustments or ground balance, which would normally be done if detecting with the coil near the ground.

Pin tested 29mm long x 0.6mm thick, this is the size of pins I use when sewing.

Gold Racer.
All Metal: 100mm
Disc 2: 50mm
Disc 3: 65mm

Red Racer.
All Metal:100mm+
2 Tone Disc: 50mm+
3 Tone Disc: 25mm+

Early Garret Pin Pointer 10mm on this pin.

Thank you! So there is no actual difference between Gold Racer and Red Racer. I guess Red Racer would be more versatile. 10cm and more is great. Did you perhaps manage to notice, whether the angle towards the coil matter?
And btw. you use very small needles . I thought, I used the smallest.

Also take into consideration that the Red Racer will very soon be superceded by the Racer 2, just to add a bit more confusion.

http://www.makrodetector.com/racer-2-metal-detector.html

 

[claudius]

Got me curious now, I'll put mine to the test tonight, I would have thought most high end machines with good gain should have little trouble picking up a needle, the sensitivity to small iron based (steel, tin, chrome) items I find out in the parks is downright distracting.

Using indoors near emi sources is certainly going to make life interesting, I'm guessing that's why handheld scanners are so costly to produce the shelding needed to operate without falsing on emi yet sensitive enough to pick up reasonable sized metallic objects.

One of the more left field requests on pa yet!

Hi there. Did you perhaps manage to do any test? Sorry for bothering, but I am just about to make a final decision, and any new information is very valuable.

 

[nesral]

Ran a DetectorPro PistolProbe over a 15mm x 0.6mm pin placed under 16 layers of T Shirt material (T Shirt folded over 3 times)

No trouble detecting the pin within the area size of a 10 coin, which with a pinpointer is spot on.

 

[PhaseTech]

Just tried the Gold Racer. I can crank the Sens almost to max and no chatter indoors.
In all-metal I'm getting my small pin at 140mm

 

[Lanky]

I'll try the Aldi tonight!

 

[claudius]

Thank you!

Ran a DetectorPro PistolProbe over a 15mm x 0.6mm pin placed under 16 layers of T Shirt material (T Shirt folded over 3 times)
No trouble detecting the pin within the area size of a 10 coin, which with a pinpointer is spot on.

That is a very good result with a very small needle. I was about to buy a pinpointer before (consider Garrett), but than everything (articles, reviews, youtube tests) showed, that it is just not sensitive enough. I will read more about this PistolProbe, because from what I see now, it has an opinion of being more sensitive than any other pinpointer. But to tell you the truth, I really got king of excited with the idea of having a real detector, that is why I am more inclined toward buying something bigger .

Just tried the Gold Racer. I can crank the Sens almost to max and no chatter indoors.
In all-metal I'm getting my small pin at 140mm

Once again, thank you a lot. You remember what was the size of the pin?

 

[PhaseTech]

Sorry, I meant my smaller needle, 32mm

 

[nesral]

Don't have a Nokta Pointer so somebody else can do the test with that one.

My Guess it will do the same as the PistolProbe, my old Garrett Pro-Pointer do.

 

[claudius]

So guys, I just learned, that G2 does not have true all metal mode (to my shock). I am actually confused, because, it is not a easy information to find (whether a device has or does not have this mode). I don't know, what is better - to buy a device with lower frequency (like 13 kHz) but true all metal mode or a device without true all meta mode, but higher frequency (like 19 kHz). I am asking, because both of these properties (high frequency and true all metal) are supposed to make a detector more sensitive toward small targets. And besides AT Gold (which does not suit me), it is not easy to find a device, that has two of these properties.

 

[grubstake]

So guys, I just learned, that G2 does not have true all metal mode (to my shock). I am actually confused, because, it is not a easy information to find (whether a device has or does not have this mode). I don't know, what is better - to buy a device with lower frequency (like 13 kHz) but true all metal mode or a device without true all meta mode, but higher frequency (like 19 kHz). I am asking, because both of these properties (high frequency and true all metal) are supposed to make a detector more sensitive toward small targets. And besides AT Gold (which does not suit me), it is not easy to find a device, that has two of these properties.

I think you need to unlearn that misinformation about the G2, mate - nobody here told you it and it's incorrect. The Teknetics G2/Fisher Gold Bug family of 19 kHz detectors DO in fact have a true, threshold-based, ground balancing, zero discrimination, all metal mode. The odd man out is the Garrett AT Gold's 13 kHz brother, the AT Pro, which doesn't.

 

[claudius]

I think you need to unlearn that misinformation about the G2, mate - nobody here told you it and it's incorrect. The Teknetics G2/Fisher Gold Bug family of 19 kHz detectors DO in fact have a true, threshold-based, ground balancing, zero discrimination, all metal mode. The odd man out is the Garrett AT Gold's 13 kHz brother, the AT Pro, which doesn't.

That is so confusing. I won't link here another MD forum, but let me just quote a part of a bigger comment of an experienced MD user, nickname Monte:
"Some models use a numeric reference, either printed on the decal around the Disc. control knob, or needle meter display with a '0' indicator on the scale, or a digital-type display that shows a numeric label such as '1' (the minimum Disc. setting reference on the Omega), or '0' (as the minimum number reference on the Teknetics G2 and Fisher Gold Bug Pro), however, as I stated in my post, the Tek. Omega, G2, and Fisher Gold Bug Pro do not have a true 'Zero' Disc. setting, which can also be referred to as an All Metal Accept level of performance. (...) The T2 is the ONLY Teknetics model that adjusts down to a true, "zero rejection" or "all metal accept" Disc. level. "

How do I tell, if a device has or has not the mode then?

 

[grubstake]

Monte's a pedantic old coot, but generally knowledgeable and reliable, IMHO. If you read again what he says, he is talking about the Discrimination mode not actually going down to zero. He is NOT saying that there isn't a separate, true All Metal mode on these detectors, as you have concluded. There is no confusion on his part or mine and my above comment stands.

The Gold Bug/G2 and related models use a control panel like that below, where the red dot at 6 o'clock below the Mode knob on the right, indicates a switched Discriminate mode (DISC), with the level of discrimination controlled by the +/- buttons (DISC LEVEL). Switching the Mode knob clockwise from the 6 o'clock position, changes the detector into true ALL METAL mode with a variable THRESHOLD level. In All Metal mode, the +/- buttons manually control the detector's level of GROUND BALANCE and discrimination is not available:

For somebody who has never used such devices, this may be somewhat hard to follow, but in use, the sound and 'feel' of detecting in All Metal vs Discriminate mode is very clearly different and there is no mistaking the one for the other.