Idea For Creating Test Nuggets Of Various Sizes?

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SteelPat said:
GaryO said:
Gold and lead of the same pysical size will test identically . :cool:

Similar maybe but not exact. A small bit of lead shot sounds slightly different to the same size and shape bit of gold (on a GPZ7000 anyway). The lead sounds sharper on the signal where as the gold tends to soften on the edges.

Electrically if you look at the output on the receive preamp on an oscilloscope, you will see the decay rates between lead and gold are different. On a lot of detectors, the circuitry wont allow this difference to be heard.

But as I said previously, for depth testing/comparisons, lead is good to use. When I have been testing some of my experimental circuits, small bits of aluminium (3mm or 4mm sq cut from drink can) is a very good simulation for small SDC type of gold.
Where you say the same sized lead was it identical in size and shape to the gold you are comparing the sounds to ? I dont mean close or similar but exactly.
Ill have to retry with my PI machine and see if i can pick up any noticeable differences.
 
Cant say it was exact as I am not going to muck about with my gold nuggets but it was very close. But I have compared decay rates on an oscilloscope between lead and gold and they are different - the decay rate is more or less independent of nugget shape/size and is more about the chemical composition of the element. As PI machines look at the decay rate, it stands to reason that there will be a difference. As I mentioned before, it will depend on the quality and design of the receive circuitry as to whether that difference is able to be perceived on a particular machine.
 
All round though, regardless of the machines capability and the variance of the materials tested...it still all comes back to the operators 'ears' and what HE/SHE responds to and digs... :D

Me?...i dig every signal and even check surface responses, found a few sun-bakers that way myself. The latest being a 0.34gm as recent as Jan. this year. ;)

Gypsy
 
Yep even though there may be theoretical and scientific difference i doubt in a practical sense anyone could make a confident decision based on sound they are hearing . Just my opinion particularly on the test ive tried and also based on the many thousands of leadshot pieces dug by members here alone that have NOT been deciphered as such and left in the ground un dug, regardless of brand or model they are using . :cool:
 
I understand the halo effect quite well when it is in regards to metals, like iron in particular, as i have dug rusting bits of metal up, the surrounding soil around the object contains broken bits off the object, then these small particles leach around the object with water being the main culprit. As i have only found a couple of bits of gold, and probably detected for about 60 hours max in the gold fields, i cant really comment on the gold side of things. But with gold the halo effect must be significantly less than an iron object, unless the nugget is surrounded by small/fine particles of gold. Would`nt this be the case?

Okay; that comment i made about refilling mud in the hole around the object was way off, time is needed for the halo effect to come into play, yesterday was a bad day for me mentally, i can stuff up sometimes as i did with that comment, but i stand by the gold leaf.
We are chasing gold are`nt we? Why would a person use another metal to test, when gold leaf is the real deal, and what i should of explained was( i want to know what the sound is on the deep nugget/object that is on the extreme edge of the detectors range/ sound is just audible) as a large shallow object is obviously there, i want to know if it is just a murmur or a sharp spike( what ever it may be) so i know in the future when i walk over a very deep object, i might just be able to work out that something is actually there!
 
You are looking for ANY faint variation in your threshold. These slight changes are what usualy get hidden anongst general ground noise particularly in older or vlf machines. They may present in a short mellow tone on a smaller target near the max detection depth or a longer mellow tone for bigger targets . Some may even give a null in the tone.

The deeper they are the more you have to double check and go slow or you will miss them.
Im sure others can try explain more precisely .
 
Haven't been in the game very long, pls. Advise if I'm doing the wrong thing regards "digging every target". Lately I've been digging heaps and heaps of shotgun pellets with next to no gold,2300. I scrape every one but if the coil doesn't scream as I move it through the dirt that I have scraped up, I put it down to a pellet and I don't bother checking any further.i will say that I have buried a tiny piece of gold amongst the dirt on some occasions just to hear the different loudness of the two, and I guess to convince myself. I think I'm being particular and careful and I tell myself if it's in the loose dirt and the target doesn't scream, then it's a pellet. If iv'e gone down a bit into the hard ground/clay I might have a look, even if it doesn't scream, but so far always a pellet. Have I got a bit to learn here or am I basically on the right track.
Thankyou, Leroy.
 
I agree totally with GaryO. Its not about listening for a certain tone or signal. What you are listening for is any change in the threshold.

The tone can go up or down, can be mellow, have a warble - doesnt really matter. The shape of a bit of gold will change the sound you get (even with the same surface area).

The trick is to dig everything. I have been guilty of walking away from targets thinking they were junk. This generally happens towards the end of the day when you are tired of digging loads of rubbish. The next day you always left wondering - especially when you hear of people digging large targets close to the surface that screamed like junk.
 
Leroy said:
Jaros, shall I post again under a New topic, I am a bit confused here,still trying to work out the forum?
Leroy.

Leroy, just go to the home forum page, go to General and on the RHS of General you will see "New Topic". Click on it and away you go.
 
Leroy said:
Jaros, shall I post again under a New topic, I am a bit confused here,still trying to work out the forum?
Leroy.

g'day Leroy, I think what Jaros meant was, the original title of the whole thread was "Idea for creating test nuggets of various sizes (What do you think?)" and so your question wasn't really related to that. Start up a new post mate and I am sure you will get plenty of useful advise.
(correct me if I'm wrong Jaros :8 )

Cheers,

Billy.

(EDIT) he quick this Jaros chap, beat me too it. :)
 
SteelPat said:
The next day you always left wondering - especially when you hear of people digging large targets close to the surface that screamed like junk.

Yup, and 2x feet from where you last were lolol....

GGA
 
resurrecting an old thread here, but the other day whilst reading through the Nexus Detectors website & watching their videos, somewhere I came across a mention of guys making their own test nuggets from an alloy of 60%Tin & 40%Lead.
This made me take notice as I have a supply of pure tin from my shooting days making my own special alloys & casting my own projectiles.
Now from reading some of the comments in this thread, & the fact that detectors generate eddy currents in a metal object that then generates its own micro electro-magnetic fields, that the detector then detects (& its decay), it seems that making this alloy is pointless as lead & tin are similar electrically, but a bit different from gold. If the signal from gold vs lead is nearly the same, then using a lead/tin alloy would seem to make very little to no difference at all.
Has anyone here ever tried this 60/40 alloy?
Any results or comments on what was achieved?
 
I am but a mere geo who can detect his gold wedding ring at as great a depth as he wants to dig, and I have never worried about the details of why. But I don't understand this discussion at all (seems to me that a person who has an average detector and spends as much time in the bush detecting as I see people spending on detector discussions here, is likely to be the most successful - barring issues like having a poor detector for noisy ground). I know little about the working of detectors and am amazed at the complexity of what people discuss and the claims they make for things that don't seem to me to vary a lot in overall complexity (except relating to search area of the coil, induced field strength from the coil, and noisy ground), My father made me my first detector around 1970 (wound the coil and all - he had his own electronics company).

In my naivety I have always considered that the property that mattered was conductivity (i.e. inverse of resistance). The basic principle seems to me to be that you are inducing an electromagnetic field into the ground via a coil. If there are no conductors in the ground there is no current flow induced in the ground as you move the coil. However if there is a conductor such as a gold nugget in the ground, the fact that a conductive lump is being subjected to a moving electromagnetic field will induce current flow in the conductive lump. That current flow will produce a secondary electromagnetic field around the lump, proportional to the size of the lump, and this will add to the field from the coil and give a different field to that induced by the coil alone. This would presumably be reflected by measuring this as the change in horizontal or vertical component of the field, and this change can be measured as an EMF which can be used to make a noise or drive a meter. Isn't this the principle in its most basic form? While mass is important I would expect shape to be a significant but lesser factor than mass, since it determines the orientation of the induced electromagnetic field and therefore the magnitude of the measured vertical or horizontal component of that field (the field around a vertical sheet would be quite different to that around a horizontal sheet - but without a conductive metal there would be no field anyway).

If so, conductivity (and mass and orientation of the lump) is the thing that matters, not SG. Conductivity is commonly measured relative to the IACS (the abbreviation for International Annealed Copper Standard). The number preceding "IACS" is the percentage of conductivity a material has relative to copper, which is considered to be 100% conductive.

1553193893_iacs_conductivity.jpg


Silver (the only metal likely to be in a gold nugget other than gold) is slightly more conductive than copper (105%). Gold is not nearly as conductive (although still quite conductive at 70%). Lead is extremely poorly conductive at 7% and would be quite useless as a test metal -realistically aluminium or failing that copper would be the closest to gold to use in tests. The other metals do not occur naturally in the ground (iron metal is not present in the ground, it is actually iron oxide that occurs in mineralised ground). I cannot find an IACS table for minerals, but I do have some resistivity values (the inverse of conductivity but measured in different units to IACS values). This can be compared with the same values as those for pure metals, thus giving some correlation with IACS values.

1553194887_resistivity.jpg


1553194914_resistivity2.jpg


Graphite, which is a significant component of black slate, is 5x10-3 Ohm-m. This suggests to me that hematite (which together with a third iron mineral maghemite is a significant component of "ironstone") has a sufficiently low resistivity (high IACS) to be a problem given that it can be present in a very large volume (so the resultant secondary field will be large because of a combination of its relatively high IACS and its mass). Presumably this gives "noise". The IACS value for graphite is so low (the resistivity so high) that it would usually not be a significant problem even when dealing with a thick bed of black (graphitic) slate - however graphitic slate can be high in pyrite which would increase its IACS so it could give a detectable response in some cases.

Maybe I am talking through my hat, as I am trying to reason this from first principles from uni physics, However if correct, lead would be pretty useless for testing depth responses but copper would be a fairly good substitute for gold since it gives 70% of the respoinse of gold (compared with 7% of the response of lead compared with gold). And wrapping things in foil etc would be totally useless since it would primarily depend on the mass and the conductivity of the metal in the foil (magnitude of the induced field would be small despite its large area) - while the IACS of aluminium is very close to gold the mass of the foil would be negligible. Lumps of aluminium metal would probably be ideal test materials.
 
Ded Driver said:
Has anyone here ever tried this 60/40 alloy?
Any results or comments on what was achieved?

Yes I have by using blobs of solder as test targets. On the test bench there is a very slight difference but in the real world, there is very little detectable change from lead.
For large test targets buried deep, lead still seems to be the best and cheapest solution.

goldierocks said:
However if correct, lead would be pretty useless for testing depth responses but copper would be a fairly good substitute for gold since it gives 70% of the respoinse of gold

Unfortunately it doesnt quite work like that. Most people use Pulse Induction detectors for gold due to their ability to handle mineralised ground. Without going into great detail, the PI machines look at the 'decay rate' presented by the target at the coil. This is measured in Tau. The decay rate is not set in stone and for our purposes is in the microsecond range. Most detectors will start looking at the decay rate anywhere from 5usec to 50usec after the coil pulse. It will vary due to size, shape and density of the target. The decay rate of lead and gold are similar (but not the same) and are close enough to give good depth comparisons.
 
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