Who Owns the River?

[yass00_Au]

G'day folks,

Just wanted to pick ya brains and hear your thoughts on who actually owns the river system? There seems to be conflicting reads over the WWW regarding this matter and some goes like this:

Old land titles state some boundaries go to the middle of the river, while I've read elsewhere the boundary should be fenced off 50 meters up from the banks?

If land is owned on both sides of the river then that section of river is private property and thus needing land owners permission?

The river is crown land and can be accessed while hiking or driving the river regardless of who owns the river either side but not enter the section of river through private property without permission?

I was driving around looking for access points to some particular sections of river but most where through private property with intimidating signage with no access points other than walking/hiking gear in along the river banks or driving along the river while water was low..

Cheers,


Ross

 

[Gold miner]

Snipped from various sources:

In most cases the bed of the water body and the majority of its bank is governed by Crown Lands Acts or the equivalent in each state and territory. This makes it land owned by the government and therefore often accessible to the general public as long as they do not use private land to access the water.

In situations of very old freeholds, ownership/lease of land can extend to the centre of the waterway and landowners on either side may have jurisdiction over half the waterway each. On a limited number of waterways most notably in NSW, being on a river that passes through a farm could lead you to trespassing.

It would usually be interpreted that if a waterway can be entered through public access you can expect to be able to access the water and set foot on its immediate banks. If you wish to venture further up the banks you will require specific permission of the landowner or lessee.

In general the advice received from legal professionals within government departments was to check with the land titles office in your state or territory or the appropriate local council as to who owns the waterways you plan to access and if necessary contact the landowner/lessee for the appropriate permissions before setting out on the water.

However I think the smartest move is to gain permission from the relevant landholder.

 

[yass00_Au]

Snipped from various sources:

In most cases the bed of the water body and the majority of its bank is governed by Crown Lands Acts or the equivalent in each state and territory. This makes it land owned by the government and therefore often accessible to the general public as long as they do not use private land to access the water.

In situations of very old freeholds, ownership/lease of land can extend to the centre of the waterway and landowners on either side may have jurisdiction over half the waterway each. On a limited number of waterways most notably in NSW, being on a river that passes through a farm could lead you to trespassing.

It would usually be interpreted that if a waterway can be entered through public access you can expect to be able to access the water and set foot on its immediate banks. If you wish to venture further up the banks you will require specific permission of the landowner or lessee.

In general the advice received from legal professionals within government departments was to check with the land titles office in your state or territory or the appropriate local council as to who owns the waterways you plan to access and if necessary contact the landowner/lessee for the appropriate permissions before setting out on the water.

However I think the smartest move is to gain permission from the relevant landholder.

G'day Gold miner,

Just a note on the last quote, how do you really go about tracking down relevant landowners when on some of these properties there are no houses and no one lives on the property with no postal box out front and a mention on the river itself there are no signage to state private property and or any visible boundary fencing ?

Will be in touch with Land Tittles Office when I have a chance to find out exactly what status the waterways are in the area, Thanks for your feedback Gold miner..

Cheers,


Ross

 

[Nugget]

It's one of these complicated "grey" areas that I think really needs to be consolidated into a uniform regulation. Finding the land owner can be difficult hence why so many prospectors are tempted into trying their luck with trespassing.

My question is how can one follow the law if one doesn't know which law applies to what, or how find out?

 

[yass00_Au]

It's one of these complicated "grey" areas that I think really needs to be consolidated into a uniform regulation. Finding the land owner can be difficult hence why so many prospectors are tempted into trying their luck with trespassing.

My question is how can one follow the law if one doesn't know which law applies to what, or how find out?

I like that last bit Nugget..

So I guess i'll try and do some research and homework before heading out and take a copy of paper trail along with me in the Hilux so if I'm approached for good or bad I can say I tried..

 

[Nugget]

Let us know how you go with it Also take a look at this topic regarding state by state regulations https://www.prospectingaustralia.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=125

 

[Gold miner]

My question is how can one follow the law if one doesn't know which law applies to what, or how find out?

I think mate, that you wouldn't have a leg to stand on in court, or worse.....
It is YOUR responsibility to know the law in respect to the activity that you are doing...

Hmmm simple explaination....

"Well I didnt know that I couldnt talk on my mobile while driving".....

Now most of us know that this is the law, so wouldn't do it!

However if you went to court, saying I didnt know, you would presumably still be charged, because you should have made an effort to know!

I dunno, complicated as mud!
A simple solution is GET PERMISSION! If permission is not forthcoming, then move on!!

Lands dept have all SPs and RPs listed and can tell you who the landholder/lessee is.

 

[yass00_Au]

Let us know how you go with it Also take a look at this topic regarding state by state regulations

I have the regulations on file Nugget and have sifted through in the past and wished I hadn't

Thanks for the heads up mate..

Cheers,


Ross

 

[yass00_Au]

My question is how can one follow the law if one doesn't know which law applies to what, or how find out?

I think mate, that you wouldn't have a leg to stand on in court, or worse.....
It is YOUR responsibility to know the law in respect to the activity that you are doing...

Hmmm simple explaination....

"Well I didnt know that I couldnt talk on my mobile while driving".....

Now most of us know that this is the law, so wouldn't do it!

However if you went to court, saying I didnt know, you would presumably still be charged, because you should have made an effort to know!

I dunno, complicated as mud!
A simple solution is GET PERMISSION! If permission is not forthcoming, then move on!!

Lands dept have all SPs and RPs listed and can tell you who the landholder/lessee is.

Yeah your right Gold miner pleading ignorance wont help s#%t up creek.. I've done a lot rock crawling in the past and it was the same regarding where you could and could not drive in National Parks.. It was up to you to find out from NPWS Nation Parks and Wildlife Service what tracks where open/closed regardless of non existent gates or barriers at the start or end of tracks.. In this case it s a bit different but the same principle applies for access.. Will further investigate through Land Titles Office as stated in previous post and act accordingly..

Oh Gold miner what is SPs and RPs short for?

Cheers,


Ross

 

[Gold miner]

Oh Gold miner what is SPs and RPs short for?

Cheers,


Ross

Its just the plan numbers mate. RP = Rural Plan

 

[TenOunce Tone]

The RP and SP are the plans that have all the allotments on them, if you own a house or block of land, on the title documents you will see RP 12345 and or SP 12345, these numbers identify the particular patch of dirt.. so it don't get confused with another patch of dirt in another part of the country.

 

[Nugget]

My question is how can one follow the law if one doesn't know which law applies to what, or how find out?

I think mate, that you wouldn't have a leg to stand on in court, or worse.....
It is YOUR responsibility to know the law in respect to the activity that you are doing...

Hmmm simple explaination....

"Well I didnt know that I couldnt talk on my mobile while driving".....

Now most of us know that this is the law, so wouldn't do it!

Thanks GM, I wasn't suggesting playing ignorant and agree with what you are saying, I was just pointing out the obvious difficulties in finding out law applies to which waterway. Wouldn't it be great if there was simpler way

 

[Heatho]

Just from observation, some fence lines run right to the side of bridges to obviously restrict access, some don't though and seem to have a clearance from the roads and river/creek/easement. The ones with clear boundary between road/river/property may well be fair game, the ones which run right to the bridges I'd ask first.

I'd probably just ask the nearest property owner if the river is private or has public access if I were unsure of a spot. Some are very private people and I guess just want to know what you're doing down the back of
their land.

Some draw water from the rivers and creeks too, my mate outside Cooma needs house water from the river. If someone were highbanking upsteam his water would be a mess, not hassleing highbanking at all, is just something I considered a possible issue to restrict access. He'd draw water maybe once a fortnight, so other times I'd say he would be fine, or say no worries just go down stream.

Repeat not hassleing highbanking, would love to try it for myself.

 

[madmax3022]

Yep i agree. I was pulled over on the way home from work one day and one of my mates didn't have his seatbelt on and i was charged for it, i said i didn't know it was my responsibility but the officer's response was "ignorance of the law is no excuse, you are in charge of a car so by driving the car you are responsible for knowing the legalities of using said car".

I know it's a bit off topic but shows the point of knowing your legal responsibilities while hunting... It's difficult to work out permissions etc but is worth it to avoid fines and pissing landowners off

 

[Rambling rude]

Great topic here..I have seen old mines department maps from Vic that show miners individual claims.
On some of the maps it actually states that all water courses are crown land for one chain length from bank, and
You can see that their boundaries of claims stop a distance from water.
These maps are mid 1800's to 1906. I'm not sure if this is still the case. I have seen fences across rivers, but there is still a boundary fence back from the banks. I know of some farmers who will fence off an area to let stoke get water from the isolated water holes when the dams are empty, but don't know if they get permission from state rivers to do this. If I see a fence I respect it.. That way I know I'm not up setting some one. I'm only a visitor too the area and would like to return.
Cheers rude

 

[yass00_Au]

Thanks guys, I appreciate you taking the time to post up and share your thoughts and experiences.. Lots to think about with a broad range of information shared..

Cheers,


Ross

 

[G0lddigg@]

I've heard quite a few blokes been nicked around Ballarat by wandering up the river system and being dobbed in by farmers, i thought the same thing surely they cant own the water

 

[bigfella]

Hi Yass,

Recently a mate of mine who's boundary sits on a substantial creek in QLD had a similar problem; where is the extent my boundary? Info from QLD Lands Dept was that the QLD Lands Act has been recently changed to make property boundary's extend to the MIDDLE of the creek; and I assume river as well

Cheers

Bigfella