Using a dredge in Australia for recreational prospecting is illegal - information and questions
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Had this crazy idea last year of a hopper box on a float that could be set up anywhere in the creek to work crevices' now I know where the idea came from.
G
Guest
Golddigg@, with all due respect you can also buy a gold dredge from a number of places in Victoria too.
Just because they can be purchased does not make them legal.
The essence of a bait pump is a plunger that when withdrawn creates a vacuum which raises gravel from its original location and deposits into a gold saving device.
The process of raising gravel in this method and especially then having a hose feeding a sluice or whatever is illegal.
If these are legal, then why isn't a gravity dredge legal, which they are not?
A gravity dredge uses less moving parts than a bait/yabby/gold pump.
In fact they have no moving parts whatsoever.
Gravity dredges are illegal.
Eductor dredges are illegal.
Bait type pumps are illegal.
Sorry guys but this issue has been raised on so many forums so many times in the past and it always raises much debate.
But the rules are very clear on this.
In Victoria, eductor dredging is illegal in any form whatsoever without a permit.
The stopped issuing permits in 1990.
I expect to cop flack about this and I am in no way trying to rock the boat but the rules a very clear.
These issues were raised in the Eductor Dredge Enquiry way back in 1990 and the issues of non powered dredges were also discussed.
The results of these discussions is that any vacuum device to extract gravel is illegal.
I know its tempting to use one to clean out a crevice or gutter, but there are other ways.
Please for all our sakes obey the rules of the Mineral Resources Sustainable Development Act.
If you haven't read it, and you are prospecting in Victoria, you should.
Just because they can be purchased does not make them legal.
The essence of a bait pump is a plunger that when withdrawn creates a vacuum which raises gravel from its original location and deposits into a gold saving device.
The process of raising gravel in this method and especially then having a hose feeding a sluice or whatever is illegal.
If these are legal, then why isn't a gravity dredge legal, which they are not?
A gravity dredge uses less moving parts than a bait/yabby/gold pump.
In fact they have no moving parts whatsoever.
Gravity dredges are illegal.
Eductor dredges are illegal.
Bait type pumps are illegal.
Sorry guys but this issue has been raised on so many forums so many times in the past and it always raises much debate.
But the rules are very clear on this.
In Victoria, eductor dredging is illegal in any form whatsoever without a permit.
The stopped issuing permits in 1990.
I expect to cop flack about this and I am in no way trying to rock the boat but the rules a very clear.
These issues were raised in the Eductor Dredge Enquiry way back in 1990 and the issues of non powered dredges were also discussed.
The results of these discussions is that any vacuum device to extract gravel is illegal.
I know its tempting to use one to clean out a crevice or gutter, but there are other ways.
Please for all our sakes obey the rules of the Mineral Resources Sustainable Development Act.
If you haven't read it, and you are prospecting in Victoria, you should.
Hey puddler bill i hope you dont cop flack its a discussion not a food fight. I get your points but of course i disagree or we wouldn't be having this discussion. Heres what it come down to for me.
Mechanics harness and use power they do not and cannot funtion without a power source. Education dredging uses power a hand pump does not it is simply a direct driven tool like a pick shovel or a hammer.
By your logic sucking gravel through a straw and spitting it into a bucket would be illegal. Even in the usa in states where dregding is also illegal the use of a hand pump does not fall into dredging category. I have studied the laws at lenght and cannot see anything at all that states i cannot use a yabbie pump. I cant see how using one would stir the pot any more than driving a 4wd throught a creek.
Mechanics harness and use power they do not and cannot funtion without a power source. Education dredging uses power a hand pump does not it is simply a direct driven tool like a pick shovel or a hammer.
By your logic sucking gravel through a straw and spitting it into a bucket would be illegal. Even in the usa in states where dregding is also illegal the use of a hand pump does not fall into dredging category. I have studied the laws at lenght and cannot see anything at all that states i cannot use a yabbie pump. I cant see how using one would stir the pot any more than driving a 4wd throught a creek.
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I think the operator's attitude would be a big factor when questioned by authorities.
I did read somewhere in the past that use of suction was not permitted (I can't spot it in any current resources though) as it was using hydraulics for the excavation.
Gravity dredging uses no moving parts, yet it's illegal - just a long hose laying in a creek that happens to exit into a sluice...
Technically I think yabby pumps are not allowed(even though hand operated, they use hydraulics to lift gravels. Fit a smaller tube to the end of your yabby pump & you'll have greater suction & I think that would be classed as the hydraulical advantage), but you'd have to catch the authorities on a bad day or give them attitude for them to even question what you're doing if using a small hand operated sucker pump.
Once you add valves etc. to a yabby pump it might get frowned upon as it'd be more mechanical(not motorised - just mechanical).
Don't go making a big mess & if asked, say you understand it to be hand operated & weren't aware that it is otherwise.
As has been said before, there's lots of things you can buy, but to use them for their intended purpose is illegal...
I did read somewhere in the past that use of suction was not permitted (I can't spot it in any current resources though) as it was using hydraulics for the excavation.
Gravity dredging uses no moving parts, yet it's illegal - just a long hose laying in a creek that happens to exit into a sluice...
Technically I think yabby pumps are not allowed(even though hand operated, they use hydraulics to lift gravels. Fit a smaller tube to the end of your yabby pump & you'll have greater suction & I think that would be classed as the hydraulical advantage), but you'd have to catch the authorities on a bad day or give them attitude for them to even question what you're doing if using a small hand operated sucker pump.
Once you add valves etc. to a yabby pump it might get frowned upon as it'd be more mechanical(not motorised - just mechanical).
Don't go making a big mess & if asked, say you understand it to be hand operated & weren't aware that it is otherwise.
As has been said before, there's lots of things you can buy, but to use them for their intended purpose is illegal...
Twapster
Peter
I hope no one jumps down Puddlers throat as this is a good discussion and all comments and opinions deserve respect. Of course we are all hoping some of these tools are allowed, and it's probably best that it remains vague. The minute it is "Clarified" by officials, may mean the end of some peoples hobby.
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I agree Twapster.
The original post is a cool looking tool & I've seen them in the field.
Don't mind a bit of grey area... gives some leeway. Unfortunately that could go either way :/
I'll happily continue to use my yabby pump to find small fishing bait in the creek & checking for them in my pan
The original post is a cool looking tool & I've seen them in the field.
Don't mind a bit of grey area... gives some leeway. Unfortunately that could go either way :/
I'll happily continue to use my yabby pump to find small fishing bait in the creek & checking for them in my pan
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ExactlyAg Man said:I'll happily continue to use my yabby pump to find small fishing bait in the creek & checking for them in my pan
G0lddigg@ said:
This subject is truely fraught.... even a long handle shovel is "technically" a simple machine because it utilises the "mechanical advantage" of a lever to make the shovel more effective.
casper
MJB
matt
Everytime we go prospecting we use the best machine ever designed...our bodies.
I think Attitude has alot to do with it and if questioned in the field the way you respond to the questioning will decide if you politely get told to stop what your doing or your slapped with one of the never heard of fines. How is a fisherman allowed to use a yabby pump for bait but we can't use the same thing for prospecting... the law is ridiculous but a law none the less......as already mentioned a bit of vagueness comes in handy
I think Attitude has alot to do with it and if questioned in the field the way you respond to the questioning will decide if you politely get told to stop what your doing or your slapped with one of the never heard of fines. How is a fisherman allowed to use a yabby pump for bait but we can't use the same thing for prospecting... the law is ridiculous but a law none the less......as already mentioned a bit of vagueness comes in handy
My take on this.
Using a hand suction device saves having to disturb the bedrock in a stream.
Also stops having to crack open a crevice to get to the bottom of it.
All of the material is collected in a bucket.
Using a hand suction device saves having to disturb the bedrock in a stream.
Also stops having to crack open a crevice to get to the bottom of it.
All of the material is collected in a bucket.
Attitude, I could not agree more! Having ridden big motorcycles since the early 70's I can assure you that a big grin and a g'day hows ya day been? makes a very big impression. If some authority questioned it's use I would be very keen to ask why it's not kosher, listen to their speil and chuck the thing in the back of the truck and say, thanks for letting me know mate. And then hold my breath!
And puddler bill god forbid you getting any heat whatsoever! It's obviously a grey area caused by vague laws. You guys are passionate and don't want the boat rocked, I understand. At least now, anyone with one of these and reading this thread will be careful with it's use and careful with the authorities if the time comes.
And puddler bill god forbid you getting any heat whatsoever! It's obviously a grey area caused by vague laws. You guys are passionate and don't want the boat rocked, I understand. At least now, anyone with one of these and reading this thread will be careful with it's use and careful with the authorities if the time comes.
MJB said:Everytime we go prospecting we use the best machine ever designed...our bodies.
I think Attitude has alot to do with it and if questioned in the field the way you respond to the questioning will decide if you politely get told to stop what your doing or your slapped with one of the never heard of fines. How is a fisherman allowed to use a yabby pump for bait but we can't use the same thing for prospecting... the law is ridiculous but a law none the less......as already mentioned a bit of vagueness comes in handy
Vagueness is not a friend when in our country Ignorantia juris non excusat (ignorance of the law does not excuse).
Which means...if the Enforcement folks think you have done wrong, even if you are unaware of the law...it does not mattter.
In saying this...law is truly accessible only if it is readily available and easily understood.
Which in the case of the fossicking in NSW and maybe other states is not true...the vagueness and contradictions leave fossickers at the peril of
Ignorantia juris non excusat.(ignorance of the law does not excuse)
It is easy to see why there is such confusion.
Below I list a few things next to the bullet points that are commonly found in a "legal" fossicking kit.
BUT, under the rules....are any of these everyday common fossicking tools legal.
From The NSW Mining Regulation 2010
"Clause 13
Part 2
Prospecting and mining generally
power-operated equipment means any equipment powered by mechanical or electrical means."
Under this legislation...It is illegal to use a shovel, pick, wheelbarrow, hand auger, sluice, crow bar.
All of these implements are simple machines...a mechanical device
From the internet
A simple machine is a mechanical device that changes the direction or magnitude of a force.[2] In general, they can be defined as the simplest mechanisms that use mechanical advantage (also called leverage) to multiply force.[3] Usually the term refers to the six classical simple machines which were defined by Renaissance scientists:
Lever "Crow Bar, Jimmy bar, Screwdriver when prying out little rocks, shovel, pick"
Wheel and axle "Wheel Barrow"
Pulley
Inclined plane "Sluice box on angle"
Wedge "End of crow par, pick"
Screw "Hand Auger"
A simple machine uses a single applied force to do work against a single load force. Ignoring friction losses, the work done on the load is equal to the work done by the applied force. The machine can increase the amount of the output force, at the cost of a proportional decrease in the distance moved by the load. The ratio of the output to the applied force is called the mechanical advantage.
What is needed is a list of allowed devices, and a list of banned devices.
In black and white with no maybe
.
G
Guest
A piston moving in a cylinder is a mechanical device or machine.
A bait or bilge pump has a piston moving in a cylinder and thus the above applies.
If a bait pump (sic) is legal then a slurpee pump would be legal to extract gravel and its not.
It matters little if the device is motorised or hand driven.
A mechanical device, or an eductor cannot be used to extract gravel from a stream bed or bank in Victoria.
Under Victorian law and under the authority of a Miners Right you must use hand tools only for extracting gravel.
You can use a pump to pump water, but not to pump gravel.
A piston in a cylinder is under any definition you would like to present, a pump so again the previous line applies here.
The description of a bilge/bait/yabbie pump or whatever you would like to call it can be changed to whatever you would like, but its
means of operation is suction to remove gravel.
I would ask anyone to show me legislation anywhere that says anything to the contrary.
I wonder, if you get busted using one, and go to court, would the retailer who sold it to you and told you it was legal stand up and show evidence that it is legal.
NO he/she wouldn't.
Why? Because they can't produce anything to say they are legal.
Its like the moron in South Morang selling dredges on ebay.
He will tell you and he told me when I rang him to check, that you can dredge in Victoria.
Take that to court. You won't see him there.
Now with a friendly ranger, in a quiet spot, you may get away with just a bait pump to clean out a crevice,
but get a cranky ranger, or start adding hoses etc to the device and the friendly ranger will disappear very quickly.
A bait or bilge pump has a piston moving in a cylinder and thus the above applies.
If a bait pump (sic) is legal then a slurpee pump would be legal to extract gravel and its not.
It matters little if the device is motorised or hand driven.
A mechanical device, or an eductor cannot be used to extract gravel from a stream bed or bank in Victoria.
Under Victorian law and under the authority of a Miners Right you must use hand tools only for extracting gravel.
You can use a pump to pump water, but not to pump gravel.
A piston in a cylinder is under any definition you would like to present, a pump so again the previous line applies here.
The description of a bilge/bait/yabbie pump or whatever you would like to call it can be changed to whatever you would like, but its
means of operation is suction to remove gravel.
I would ask anyone to show me legislation anywhere that says anything to the contrary.
I wonder, if you get busted using one, and go to court, would the retailer who sold it to you and told you it was legal stand up and show evidence that it is legal.
NO he/she wouldn't.
Why? Because they can't produce anything to say they are legal.
Its like the moron in South Morang selling dredges on ebay.
He will tell you and he told me when I rang him to check, that you can dredge in Victoria.
Take that to court. You won't see him there.
Now with a friendly ranger, in a quiet spot, you may get away with just a bait pump to clean out a crevice,
but get a cranky ranger, or start adding hoses etc to the device and the friendly ranger will disappear very quickly.
golddiggerart
Arthur
G0lddigg@ said:
That is classified in USA as a Hand Dredge and thus is Illegal... http://www.goldrushprospecting.biz/Affiliates.html
If in doubt ring DEPI and if they are in doubt chuck it out.
golddiggerat
it actually said "Live in California where dredging has been banned or working other areas that have restricted the use of mortorized equipment? Then the Hand Dredge is for you."
But I totally agree, ask the authorities first would be best.
it actually said "Live in California where dredging has been banned or working other areas that have restricted the use of mortorized equipment? Then the Hand Dredge is for you."
But I totally agree, ask the authorities first would be best.
G
Guest
I am sure that the laws are more aimed at things like Back Hoes, Dingo Diggers, Bulldozers and large scale dredging operations for Joe Public. These types of mechanical devices will damage the rivers/creeks in the hands of lawless people.
I would not pay a fine for using a hand held suction device and would take it to court just to see the look on the judges face when they hear that I moved a bucket of gravel from the creek using a yabbie pump which caused no damage to the environment whatsoever.
I am sure a surprised attitude using a hand held device if questioned and not being caught with a D12 Dozer at your local spot would go a long way.
Good discussion but I would rather leave the laws somewhat grey.
I would not pay a fine for using a hand held suction device and would take it to court just to see the look on the judges face when they hear that I moved a bucket of gravel from the creek using a yabbie pump which caused no damage to the environment whatsoever.
I am sure a surprised attitude using a hand held device if questioned and not being caught with a D12 Dozer at your local spot would go a long way.
Good discussion but I would rather leave the laws somewhat grey.
Goldtarget
(AKA OldGT)
Poses interesting questions. The law is for lawyers to decide. The custodians are the umpires. We are just the players. As long as you don't get a consistant umpiring in any game it will be a grey area until the lawyers clarify the law. Pretty hard for the average prospector to define mechanical and occupy. It means different things to different people. I'd hazard a guess and say if you "occupy" an exempted area using a somewhat "mechanical" device you will probably go a row, but as far as I can tell this is yet to be defined by the lawyers. Oh and make sure you're wearing shoes next Sunday. Haha.
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