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Really? I would have thought that would be totally ineffective - absolutely so. The only acid that will dissolve quartz - hydrofluoric- requires a permit, and should not be used outside a fume hood, with gloves and a mask and protective clothing (it does not rapidly show burns on the skin surface, but penetrates the flesh and can dissolve the bones beneath and stop your breathing). Contact with 12 x 12 cm of skin surface can kill (less than the back of your hand). Good for dissolving eyes as well. Don't use it (it requires a lot of it to dissolve the quartz) - some will recommend Alibrite but that contains 1% of that dangerous acid and should be used with protection. . Most other acids won't dissolve gold either - but a mixture of hydrochloric and nitric acid will! So don't use that unless you just want a specimen of quartz.RM Outback said:Most use acid bought from the hardware (hydrochloric acid / brickeies acid)
To me your specimen looks like iron pyrite rather than gold, might be a few small bits in it though. Can you put up another picture, in sunlight would be better.
goldierocks said:Really? I would have thought that would be totally ineffective - absolutely so. The only acid that will dissolve quartz requires a permit, and should not be used outside a fume hood, with gloves and a mask and protective clothing (it does not rapidly show burns on the skin surface, but penetrates the flesh and can dissolve the bones beneath and stop your breathing). Don't use it (it requires a lot of it to dissolve the quartz). Most other acids won't dissolve gold either - but a mixture of hydrochloric and nitic acid will! So don't use that unless you just want a specimen of quartz.RM Outback said:Most use acid bought from the hardware (hydrochloric acid / brickeies acid)
To me your specimen looks like iron pyrite rather than gold, might be a few small bits in it though. Can you put up another picture, in sunlight would be better.
Why do you want to dissolve the quartz? If that was gold (which I doubt), it would be a beautiful specimen with the quartz attached. Just a bit of a wash with detergent or something simple to clean any coating on it.
Thanks - that was a typo and it was soon enough that I could correct it.BigWave said:Hey GR, if you are talking of HFl, then it will slowly dissolve the quartz, but not the gold as per your second sentence?
I agree that if it was gold, I'd leave it as a specimen!
I would use Alibrite with gloves and goggles outside a fume hood (as I said it is 1% and a different situation to the pure acid)- but I would not dream of using hydrofluoric acid that way. My comments particularly related to that. Some universities will not even allow hydrofluoric acid to be used in any of their laboratories on campus - not allowed on campus at all. Yet I see prospectors using it with just rubber gloves. However the reference in italics that I gave above was from the Alibrite instructions (it was referring to the HF in Alibrite, and referring to Alibrite when it talked about the dangers of being unaware when using dilute solutions.- it also says "A First Aid Kit should be readily available in case of injury caused by this product. This kit should contain: * 3% Calcium Gluconate gel (for skin injuries)" Good to hear that you take this precaution.madtuna said:As with Mercury, as with most acids, as with guns, pointy sticks, sharp implements and electrical items, common sense and a bit of PPE is required.
Unfortunately there's always someone who thinks we are not capable of exercising due care with things that can harm us.
Alibrite is perfectly fine if you read the instructions and use due care.
goldierocks said:I would use Alibrite with gloves and goggles outside a fume hood (as I said it is 1% and a different situation to the pure acid)- but I would not dream of using hydrofluoric acid that way. My comments particularly related to that. Some universities will not even allow hydrofluoric acid to be used in any of their laboratories on campus - not allowed on campus at all. Yet I see prospectors using it with just rubber gloves. However the reference in italics that I gave above was from the Alibrite instructions (it was referring to the HF in Alibrite, and referring to Alibrite when it talked about the dangers of being unaware when using dilute solutions.- it also says "A First Aid Kit should be readily available in case of injury caused by this product. This kit should contain: * 3% Calcium Gluconate gel (for skin injuries)" Good to hear that you take this precaution.madtuna said:As with Mercury, as with most acids, as with guns, pointy sticks, sharp implements and electrical items, common sense and a bit of PPE is required.
Unfortunately there's always someone who thinks we are not capable of exercising due care with things that can harm us.
Alibrite is perfectly fine if you read the instructions and use due care.
" A standard geology technique, which involved the dissolving of sedimentary rock with mineral acids (hydrochloric and hydrofluoric acid), was being undertaken in a fume cupboard" - that is the beginning of the description of the death of the technician who died despite diving in the swimming pool - it was a trained geological technician in Perth. "Investigation showed that this death could have been prevented if adequate personal protective equipment had been worn during the handling of concentrated hydrofluoric acid. Full length PVC coveralls with sleeves to the wrist or a full-length PVC apron with sleeve protectors, a face shield, rubber boots, safety goggles and mid-arm length PVC gloves should have been worn by the deceased when HF was being used in the fume cupboard. The deceased did not have access to an emergency shower to remove the HF, instead the skin was washed from a hose that provided water at a very low flow rate. Because of the low flow rate, the volume of water may have spread the HF onto other parts of the skin".
My driller was not dumb either, and had been instructed in the dangers of HF If everyone feels they know better, fine, but I am willing to bet that only a few percent of people using this site would be aware that an acid that they only spilt over their skin on the back of their hand, that was not hurting, and was not showing a burn, might already be killing them. It is not a normal acid like hydrofluoric, sulphuric or nitric, where even the fumes warn you that they will burn you - and nobody dies from those acids because they spilt some over the back of their hand, as nasty as the experience may be. A person cannot intuitively know such things (which is why we have OH&S, and why people who ignore it have nasty accidents and don't get a job from me under any circumstances - or with any mining company or laboratory). I spend my life working with such things, and also perchloric acid and radioactive substances and X-rays and I can assure you that highly trained people, taking normal precautions, still have regular accidents - I have had a number of friends, and even more acquaintances, killed by such things (all of them highly trained chemists and physicists).
However, yes, if you have to do it, Alibrite is not as dangerous, but needs care.
I agree - I use it under stringent conditions and have done so for 50 years, but I am still always a little nervous.Swinging & digging said:goldierocks said:I would use Alibrite with gloves and goggles outside a fume hood (as I said it is 1% and a different situation to the pure acid)- but I would not dream of using hydrofluoric acid that way. My comments particularly related to that. Some universities will not even allow hydrofluoric acid to be used in any of their laboratories on campus - not allowed on campus at all. Yet I see prospectors using it with just rubber gloves. However the reference in italics that I gave above was from the Alibrite instructions (it was referring to the HF in Alibrite, and referring to Alibrite when it talked about the dangers of being unaware when using dilute solutions.- it also says "A First Aid Kit should be readily available in case of injury caused by this product. This kit should contain: * 3% Calcium Gluconate gel (for skin injuries)" Good to hear that you take this precaution.madtuna said:As with Mercury, as with most acids, as with guns, pointy sticks, sharp implements and electrical items, common sense and a bit of PPE is required.
Unfortunately there's always someone who thinks we are not capable of exercising due care with things that can harm us.
Alibrite is perfectly fine if you read the instructions and use due care.
" A standard geology technique, which involved the dissolving of sedimentary rock with mineral acids (hydrochloric and hydrofluoric acid), was being undertaken in a fume cupboard" - that is the beginning of the description of the death of the technician who died despite diving in the swimming pool - it was a trained geological technician in Perth. "Investigation showed that this death could have been prevented if adequate personal protective equipment had been worn during the handling of concentrated hydrofluoric acid. Full length PVC coveralls with sleeves to the wrist or a full-length PVC apron with sleeve protectors, a face shield, rubber boots, safety goggles and mid-arm length PVC gloves should have been worn by the deceased when HF was being used in the fume cupboard. The deceased did not have access to an emergency shower to remove the HF, instead the skin was washed from a hose that provided water at a very low flow rate. Because of the low flow rate, the volume of water may have spread the HF onto other parts of the skin".
My driller was not dumb either, and had been instructed in the dangers of HF If everyone feels they know better, fine, but I am willing to bet that only a few percent of people using this site would be aware that an acid that they only spilt over their skin on the back of their hand, that was not hurting, and was not showing a burn, might already be killing them. It is not a normal acid like hydrofluoric, sulphuric or nitric, where even the fumes warn you that they will burn you - and nobody dies from those acids because they spilt some over the back of their hand, as nasty as the experience may be. A person cannot intuitively know such things (which is why we have OH&S, and why people who ignore it have nasty accidents and don't get a job from me under any circumstances - or with any mining company or laboratory). I spend my life working with such things, and also perchloric acid and radioactive substances and X-rays and I can assure you that highly trained people, taking normal precautions, still have regular accidents - I have had a number of friends, and even more acquaintances, killed by such things (all of them highly trained chemists and physicists).
However, yes, if you have to do it, Alibrite is not as dangerous, but needs care.
Good post, and you are totally right about HF Acid.
Its used in the water Industry to put Flouride in drinking water and its very dangerous!
Have done the training on it. Its a struggle finding anyone wanting to go near a Flouride plant, nasty stuff.
A workmate has had his work supplied prescription glasses get etched from only going into the plant room a few times?
A plant built in 2009 is rusting away and looks like parts of the Titanic internally.
As far as OHS goes its like entering the disabled reactor at Chernobyl.
Good, then you are sensible. I have seen scores of people here recommending use of Alibrite but you are the first to mention having calcium gluconate - how many do you think use it? But good for you that you have checked.madtuna said:With all due respect GR, anytime someone mentions either HF or Mercury immediately someone will jump on and tell us of the dangers, post the MSDS and treat us like clueless idiots. You are not the first nor will you be the last. It does get tiring though.
I am referring to Alibrite available to the public, not pure HF which as you state requires a permit.
Alibrite will work fine for what the lady wants to do if it is in fact gold in her quartz. Yes care and PPE needs to be taken but it works and works well. Nobody is recommending she try and access undiluted HF.
You might call that blas or casual, that's up to you. But it's fact.
And yes, I do have a tube of Calcium Gluconate gel along with a load of other first aid stuff I hope to never have to use.
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